The Weasel King ([info]theweaselking) wrote,
@ 2006-09-07 11:16:00
Previous Entry  Add to memories!  Tell a Friend!  Next Entry
Why homeschooling is shit, in a nutshell:
Beowulf was a factual account and he fought Dinosaurs because God wanted it that way.

This kind of thing is, for the record, why religious homeschooling is death on your resume, and that is entirely As It Should Be, and why it should be considered both gross negligence and abuse of your children.

Advertisement

(Post a new comment)


[info]scixual
2006-09-07 03:21 pm UTC (link)
Yeah, but the religio-whacko homeschoolers are just a smallish portion of the homeschoolers. Most I have met are getting a better-than-public education.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

[info]dilickjm
2006-09-07 06:59 pm UTC (link)
The question I have for home-schoolers is this -- why is it run as a "better-than-public" education, instead of educating them with "in-addition-to-public" schooling? Why not supplement public schooling with home education, rather than completely supplanting it and removing socialization as well?

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]scixual
2006-09-07 08:23 pm UTC (link)
I am not homeschooled and I cannot say I know everyone's motives.

But many seem to feel (and I might agree) that public schooling actually does some damage, especially to advanced and creative kids. Most homeschooled kids are self-starters and after the first few years manage their own education. Still tested annually to ensure they meet state requirements, of course.

I know the sterotype for homeschooling is that they are "removing socialization", but this is not true of any of the homeschooled kids I know. The parents are scrupulous about making sure the kids have lots and lots of interaction with other kids. Many areas have homeschooling support groups that help parents find other kids for their children to meet and socialize with.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]anivair
2006-09-07 08:44 pm UTC (link)
I agree in part. Schools tach to the LCD and the bright kids are left bored and uninspired. I didn't do a single piece of homework till gread school.

on the other hand, what you may gain in knowledge is lost in socialization. my homeschooled cousins are like social piriah.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]scixual
2006-09-07 09:09 pm UTC (link)
I imagine it depends on where you live, but some schools are not places where I would want my kids to learn their socialization skills.

And again, among the homeschoolers I have met personally, none of them are lacking in socialization.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]toku666
2006-09-07 09:26 pm UTC (link)
You probably should have done some of the typing homework.

Of course, then we wouldn't get unintentionally hilarious nuggets like you typing out something that is an anagram for "grade" when you meant "grad."

That's actually what my brain read the first time through. Mental double-takes are fun.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]anivair
2006-09-08 06:13 pm UTC (link)
Further evidence of my assertation. I am, after all, a product of the American school system.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]dilickjm
2006-09-07 09:31 pm UTC (link)
You completely dodged my question.

Why is homeschooling preferable to public school + homeschooling?

If you can alleviate the perceived shortcomings in public school by adding homeschooling to the mix, why is eliminating public school preferable? And no, theoretical "damage" is insufficient, since there is A) no evidence for it and B) if you are supplementing the education with homeschooling, would that not ameliorate this supposed damage? You can challenge a bright or creative child outside of school hours -- I do so daily for both of mine.

The main problem I have with homeschooling is the nigh-universal lack of critical thinking skills, which are typically developed by exposure to and analysis of competing sources of information. I have yet to meet a homeschooler with any sort of data discrimination abilites whatsoever. YMMV.

I do not know you, nor the people you are referring to in your anecdotes, so I cannot speak to their veracity. I do know, however, that the homeschoolers I know are *extremely* poorly socialized (with one notable exception out of 4 dozen or so candidates), as well as narrow-minded. Perhaps my opinion of homeschooling would be different if I ran into any of the sort that you have. Consider yourself lucky.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]scixual
2006-09-07 09:55 pm UTC (link)
You completely dodged my question.

Careful, there. "Dodge" is a loaded term. I may have failed to answer it to your satisfaction. I did not dodge it.

Why is homeschooling preferable to public school + homeschooling?

If you can alleviate the perceived shortcomings in public school by adding homeschooling to the mix, why is eliminating public school preferable?

Maybe you can, maybe you cannot. This is an "if." I reckon it depends on the amount of perceived shortcomings. Again, remember I am not a homeschooler, I'm just hypothesizing based on the ones I have met personally.

And no, theoretical "damage" is insufficient...

It is not sufficient for YOU. If the parents believe that the school their kids would be sent to in their area were sufficiently damaging, I imagine it WOULD be sufficient. For them. You were asking why parents make the choice, right? Not why Homeschooling is universally better than public schooling always (which I don't think ANYONE claims).

since there is A) no evidence for it and B) if you are supplementing the education with homeschooling, would that not ameliorate this supposed damage? You can challenge a bright or creative child outside of school hours -- I do so daily for both of mine.

Excellent. Hopefully that works well for you. It obviously does not seem like the best option for some others. As for point A, "no evidence" is a bit strong, especially when no one's really mentioned WHAT sort of damage is feared.

The main problem I have with homeschooling is the nigh-universal lack of critical thinking skills, which are typically developed by exposure to and analysis of competing sources of information. I have yet to meet a homeschooler with any sort of data discrimination abilites whatsoever. YMMV.
"Nigh universal" is loaded, too. There is nothing INHERENT in homeschooling that would cause a lack of critical thinking skills, and nothing INHERENT in public schools that would give the student any critical thinking skills. Depends on the homeschooling, and on the school. My own high school didn't help me in that as much as my own outside reading did. The homeschoolers I know have raised kids that are brighter and more critically adept than the average public school student at the high school I subbed at for a semester earlier this year. Note the word "average" there. Also, I admit, I may have a biased sample -- I don't know any homeschoolers that are kept out of public schools for religious reasons.

I do not know you, nor the people you are referring to in your anecdotes, so I cannot speak to their veracity. I do know, however, that the homeschoolers I know are *extremely* poorly socialized (with one notable exception out of 4 dozen or so candidates), as well as narrow-minded. Perhaps my opinion of homeschooling would be different if I ran into any of the sort that you have. Consider yourself lucky.

I do. Neither of us can rightly claim that our own anecdotal experience is typical, based on a sample of four dozen in your case, and less than a dozen in mine. I suspect area and quality of local schools makes a difference, as well as motive for homeschooling.

I've taught public school students I would describe as extemely poorly socialized, too, so I am not convinced that school is automatically the way to get that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]dilickjm
2006-09-07 10:18 pm UTC (link)
I give up.

*You* brought the term "damage" into this discussion. Don't blame me for it being too vague.

I do not claim homeschooling is evil. I do not claim homeschooling is bad.

I merely want to know why people think homeschooling is preferable to public AND homeschooling, where the parent supplements the education the child receives in the public school. It's not a loaded question. It *is*, however, the question I would like answered.

Your response,

I am not homeschooled and I cannot say I know everyone's motives.

But many seem to feel (and I might agree) that public schooling actually does some damage, especially to advanced and creative kids. Most homeschooled kids are self-starters and after the first few years manage their own education. Still tested annually to ensure they meet state requirements, of course.

I know the sterotype for homeschooling is that they are "removing socialization", but this is not true of any of the homeschooled kids I know. The parents are scrupulous about making sure the kids have lots and lots of interaction with other kids. Many areas have homeschooling support groups that help parents find other kids for their children to meet and socialize with.


does nothing to answer the question, and merely relates some anecdotes related to ONE WORD in my question. I'm sorry you feel "dodge" is a loaded term, but frankly, that is not my problem.

"Nigh universal" refers to my own experience with homeschoolers. I do agree that there in nothing INHERENT in either system to force it into the modes I see, but it is what I do see, both in family and employees that have been homeschooled. You may call it loaded. I call it experience. As a learning animal, I expect what has come before to come after. YMMV.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]scixual
2006-09-07 10:27 pm UTC (link)
People get really pissed at me when I talk like you do.

I feel I actually answered the question you actually asked to the best of my ability. If you;re not satisfied with my answer or my attempt to clarify, may I quote your own well-socialized example: "not my problem."

Let me also quote your opening three words, "I give up." It was never my intent to convince anyone of anything, but it really feels like you want me to be your punching bag because I *seemed* to be defending your favorite punching bag. But as you let me know twice, my mileage may vary -- whether you like it or not.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]dilickjm
2006-09-08 01:09 am UTC (link)
I'm sorry you know such thin-skinned people.

I don't have a problem with you not answering my question, actually. I have a very slight problem with you claiming that I'm using loaded terms when I'm using English words that mean actual things that you are doing, but I'm perfectly willing to chalk it up to a failure to communicate.

I have a somewhat larger problem with you defining something as "my favorite punching bag" when it ranks, oh, somewhere below War, Famine, Athlete's Foot, Scurvy, and My Expanding Waistline on my personal "issues" list. I only responded to you because of a specific claim you made ("better-than-public") that fed directly into a question I've had for a long time. Personally, I'd like to see you *defend* the positive claim you made, but I certainly can't force you to.

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

[info]scixual
2006-09-08 01:16 am UTC (link)
The positive claim I made came in two parts:

"Yeah, but the religio-whacko homeschoolers are just a smallish portion of the homeschoolers."

I have no statistics to back this up, but I rather hope "religio-whacko" is a narrow demographic.

"Most I have met are getting a better-than-public education."

There is nothing to defend here, it is a simple observation. If one wanted to challenge it, we'd have to spend some time figuring out what I meant by better-than-public, and then see if more than 50% of those I have met have it.

As for "loaded" -- perhaps we use different definitions of the term. I can accept that.

As for the punching bag comment, you'll note I framed it as "I feel as if..." -- I am not claiming it to be true, merely describing my own personal reaction. I happen to know that my ownb personal reaction need not accurately reflect the real world, whatever that is.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]scixual
2006-09-08 01:18 am UTC (link)
Oh, and further down I said, "...many seem to feel ... that public schooling actually does some damage." That was me making a guess. There's no point in making me defend a hypothesis that hasn't been tested.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]winterkoninkje
2006-09-08 07:01 am UTC (link)
Also not a homeschooler, though definitely a bright kid who got screwed time and again by the public education system.

The big reason why people don't is that you can't. Schooling, whatever the method, takes time. When you're in public school you don't really have time to go to school again elsewhere. And most bright kids are going to figure out that one of the two doesn't matter, and isn't going to do it.

Not to mention the logistical issues. You can't cover things that would be covered in public ed because then you're just wasting time, but then you can't do anything that relies on what will be taught because it'll be taught too slowly. And as if it wasn't bad enough that you can't teach any conventional subjects, it is hell trying to get public schools to accept any sort of studies outside of school as a replacement for in school. This I have extensive personal experience with.

I'm not saying that home schooling is the answer, but there isn't really a way to combine them. And based on the homeschoolers I've met, no they don't socialize like kids who went to pub ed, but they still socialize and are fine at it. The reason they don't socialize as others is not a problem, and the fact of the matter is that even if they did go to public schools, the bright ones would never socialize as the other kids anyways.

That is the burden of being intelligent. If you're average-plus there's some catering to make things marginally harder for you. But if you're smarter than average-plus then public schools actively do harm and fail to reach these kids. Either they'll start acting out and be failed out, or they'll be bored out of their skulls and loose interest in everything in life. The way things stand there isn't really any solution for these kids. Graduating early and going to college doesn't work because they're not with their age peers; being kept behind with the other kids doesn't work because they're not with their academic peers; homeschooling doesn't work because they aren't forced to conform to society's standards.

Which is not to say that there can't be a solution, just that there is not one in place presently. And as far as public education is concerned there's no option because the public doesn't see it as an issue. To those who aren't +2σ or more, they think that the bright kids should just be able to eek along at a pace comfortable for others and pick up other things some other time, they don't realize that these kids need to work at their own paces just as much as all the special needs kids. But people recognize retardation, it's easy to recognize people slower than you. It's hard to identify people smarter than yourself, and they're smart enough to be able to fit in "well enough". So noone cares.

Apologies for that tangent there, it's a sore spot of mine though I think it's relevant. All the homeschooled kids I know are average-plus or above, and I think that must be taken into consideration regarding the fact that public schooling fails these children and so adding some homeschooling on top isn't going to help very much or, if anything, will only highlight to them how much the system is failing them. Also, if the additional homeschooling is done with any intention of replacing the public curriculum, then the parents are just setting themselves up for prolonged arguments with their schools administration, and not just once, but every single term. Some parents are willing and have the endurance to deal with that, but most don't especially if they're putting their all into the schooling.

I'm glad you're challenging your kids outside of school. Never stop that. You're already doing so much more than other parents, it'd be a shame for them to loose that.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

[info]therayven
2006-09-07 05:55 pm UTC (link)
It's somewhat frightening that these Christian revisionists are allowed to go around reinterpreting and changing anything they see fit, and teaching it to their children, who will grow up and enter society with these fucked up ideas in their head. "Evolution is wrong, God made everything. Carbon dating is wrong, the earth is only a few thousand years old. Beowulf was completely factual, but they weren't dragons, they were dinosaurs."

And then there's this:

"Details are embellished to make the battles more intense, the animals more scary, and the heroes more heroic. But the basic story is historically true, and the animals are zoologically real. They are not called trolls or other fantasy names. ...

Why, then, do so many literature critics say that Beowulf is fiction? It is because they do not believe that dinosaur creatures lived at the same time men lived. Their evolutionary worldview says that dinosaurs lived long ages before men evolved on the earth. Therefore, in their minds, this all must be fiction. But with a Biblical worldview, we can see that dinosaurs entered the ark with Noah—land species at least—and they lived on the earth again after the Flood. But the post-Flood earth was not so hospitable to large creatures and they eventually became almost extinct."

And having been raised with this knowledge, they will never question it.

(Reply to this)

Create an Account
Forgot your login?
Login w/ OpenID
English • Español • Deutsch • Русский…